No. It *would* feel like a betrayal to. I understand that much. I wouldn't be able to continue with him.
And I don't mean to say that *you* should continue on with him as if he were the Hythlodaeus you lost either. You *shouldn't*. He is absolutely *not* a replacement for *your* Hythlodaeus.
Just-- don't close yourself off to becoming friends again with *this* Hythlodaeus, even if you can't love him like the one you knew before. Not as a replacement for the one you lost, but as a person in his own right. Because even if he started his existence as someone created from your own memories, he's grown from that.
I know you will not like to hear this, but I am not about to pretend otherwise: he is not a person. He is a construct. He is without a soul, and therefore exists outside of the natural order of life. He is no more a living person than a clock. He is programmed to act as he does, he is following a script not unlike a computer program, but a computer is not a person.
What he feels, thinks, and knows are all by this script, and while he is malleable, this does not make him alive. I am not saying this to be cruel, but he is a product of magic that my people have perfected over eons, so I suggest you try not to argue with that which you cannot begin to comprehend the complexity of. These are the immutable laws I spoke of, and no one's opinion can change them.
We cannot create true life through these magicks, only a mock of it, and that is what he is. Unfortunate as it is, cruel as it is, there is no denying reality. Wishing it were otherwise will not make it so.
[Steven sighs deeply, counts to ten, and rakes his fingers back through his hair.]
I'm not going to get too in-depth in arguing with you and admittedly my opinions on these matters are largely a product from years of science fiction with robots and AIs as fully realized characters (and also from how my baby sister used to tell me when she was small that she was going to make robots someday and I'd have to be a good uncle to them.)
But to me, that doesn't say 'not a person.' That just says 'not alive.'
But maybe being alive or originally having been alive (because arguably he is alive now that he's human here) *is* part of *your* definition of person, even though it's not part of mine.
I'm glad you won't forsake him. But you should probably be prepared for him to leave *you* if that's how you view him.
He can stay here if he does. I'll talk to Jack about it.
This is exactly why I said as I did, that you would not like to hear this. You see, you view what was very much my reality through a lens of fiction, a narrative shaped by those without true experience nor perspective on such matters for they have never lived such a reality. Your enjoyment of this fiction does not trump my lived experience, nor the judgments and necessities of such distinctions within my world.
Life indeed is a qualifier for personhood. These facts, while not kind to some, are necessary when it comes to administering judgments that could very well affect an entire planet. We cannot ignore reality because we do not like it, that would be irresponsible. After all, we of The Convocation were tasked with such a grand scale responsibility, and thus we have to view such matters with complete objectivity.
Do not misunderstand me, this does not come from a place of contempt nor malice, but Hythlodaeus' existence is merely an extension of my own. In a sense, and in very simple terms, he is a portion of myself shaped and formed into the likeness of my dearly departed, but he is not his own existence, and never can he be, not truly.
But really, it's no trouble. Tulpa or not, Hythlodaeus is still my friend.
(My little sister and the dozen robot children she never lived to create would have something else to say to you about your personhood qualifications... but as nicely distracting as a debate on 'Are Robots, Tulpas, and AIs People?' might be, I suspect we're too new in our civility to each other to keep from it blowing out of hand, so let's not tonight.)
[He stares at "Tulpa" with withering patience, but decides to ignore the fact that both Steven and Dirk have called Hythlodaeus it. There's no way for Steven to know this, and thus the use is innocent and not provocative.]
Indeed. Thus I was not attempting to get into a debate with you about it, for our experiences and perceptions are far too different to enter one without some measure of strained patience, and our bond cannot likely weather such.
Besides, I still have Hythlodaeus to speak to, so you have the right of it. Tonight is not the night.
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fingersandteeth) wrote2022-02-21 05:11 pm
no subject
No. It *would* feel like a betrayal to. I understand that much. I wouldn't be able to continue with him.
And I don't mean to say that *you* should continue on with him as if he were the Hythlodaeus you lost either. You *shouldn't*. He is absolutely *not* a replacement for *your* Hythlodaeus.
Just-- don't close yourself off to becoming friends again with *this* Hythlodaeus, even if you can't love him like the one you knew before. Not as a replacement for the one you lost, but as a person in his own right. Because even if he started his existence as someone created from your own memories, he's grown from that.
no subject
What he feels, thinks, and knows are all by this script, and while he is malleable, this does not make him alive. I am not saying this to be cruel, but he is a product of magic that my people have perfected over eons, so I suggest you try not to argue with that which you cannot begin to comprehend the complexity of. These are the immutable laws I spoke of, and no one's opinion can change them.
We cannot create true life through these magicks, only a mock of it, and that is what he is. Unfortunate as it is, cruel as it is, there is no denying reality. Wishing it were otherwise will not make it so.
Nevertheless, as I said, I will not forsake him.
no subject
I'm not going to get too in-depth in arguing with you and admittedly my opinions on these matters are largely a product from years of science fiction with robots and AIs as fully realized characters (and also from how my baby sister used to tell me when she was small that she was going to make robots someday and I'd have to be a good uncle to them.)
But to me, that doesn't say 'not a person.' That just says 'not alive.'
But maybe being alive or originally having been alive (because arguably he is alive now that he's human here) *is* part of *your* definition of person, even though it's not part of mine.
I'm glad you won't forsake him. But you should probably be prepared for him to leave *you* if that's how you view him.
He can stay here if he does. I'll talk to Jack about it.
no subject
Life indeed is a qualifier for personhood. These facts, while not kind to some, are necessary when it comes to administering judgments that could very well affect an entire planet. We cannot ignore reality because we do not like it, that would be irresponsible. After all, we of The Convocation were tasked with such a grand scale responsibility, and thus we have to view such matters with complete objectivity.
Do not misunderstand me, this does not come from a place of contempt nor malice, but Hythlodaeus' existence is merely an extension of my own. In a sense, and in very simple terms, he is a portion of myself shaped and formed into the likeness of my dearly departed, but he is not his own existence, and never can he be, not truly.
All the same, you have my gratitude.
no subject
But really, it's no trouble. Tulpa or not, Hythlodaeus is still my friend.
(My little sister and the dozen robot children she never lived to create would have something else to say to you about your personhood qualifications... but as nicely distracting as a debate on 'Are Robots, Tulpas, and AIs People?' might be, I suspect we're too new in our civility to each other to keep from it blowing out of hand, so let's not tonight.)
no subject
Indeed. Thus I was not attempting to get into a debate with you about it, for our experiences and perceptions are far too different to enter one without some measure of strained patience, and our bond cannot likely weather such.
Besides, I still have Hythlodaeus to speak to, so you have the right of it. Tonight is not the night.
no subject
[Somebody needs to tell Jack they've got a potential houseguest.]